Musings on clichés and archetypes
Jul. 14th, 2005 12:26 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Probably the most interesting thing about setting this book underwater, in a dolphin realm, is that many of the clichés of speech that we take for granted simply don't work. I'm hesitant to use words like "territory," "homeland," or "house," for example. I've kept "territory" because I can't think of a suitable replacement, but "homeland" has become "homesea," which my spellchecker doesn't like at all, and my dolphins don't live indoors so "house" is not really a problem.
I've been trying to create new clichés and mottos that fit dophin society. "Revenge is a dish best served cold" has no meaning in a place where food is not cooked, so I changed it to a rather clumsy reference to fat fish being more nourishing than thin, young ones. I'm going to have to tweak that a bit, but the basic idea is right. My characters don't say, "What on earth," they say, "What under the sweet green sea." They don't talk so much as sing to each other, and while I use the word "said" for ease of use, I also use the word "sang" from time to time, and more melodic synonyms liked croon, hum, intone - all of those I use often.
At the only writing workshop I made it to at Anthrocon, reference was made to the fact that senses are different when your characters are animals. You can tell a good writer from an amateur by the volume of scent referents in their books. I don't think I was consistent with this in "Dreamcarver," though it was there at least sporadically. This probably has something to do with thinking of my characters as humans more often than not. Having changed milieux entirely, though, I'm forcing myself to think of my characters as dolphins. I have to make up mannerisms of speech and body language that fit creatures who live in three dimensions, who have no legs and therefore no waists or hips, and for whom light versus dark is less important than sound versus silence. And I have to couch these mannerisms in language that my readers will automatically associate with the clichés and archetypes with which they are already familiar. My characters have to come across as simultaneously human and dolphin - dolphin for the purposes of plot but human for the purposes of character.
I suppose that's the soul of anthropomorphic writing, right there.
I've been trying to create new clichés and mottos that fit dophin society. "Revenge is a dish best served cold" has no meaning in a place where food is not cooked, so I changed it to a rather clumsy reference to fat fish being more nourishing than thin, young ones. I'm going to have to tweak that a bit, but the basic idea is right. My characters don't say, "What on earth," they say, "What under the sweet green sea." They don't talk so much as sing to each other, and while I use the word "said" for ease of use, I also use the word "sang" from time to time, and more melodic synonyms liked croon, hum, intone - all of those I use often.
At the only writing workshop I made it to at Anthrocon, reference was made to the fact that senses are different when your characters are animals. You can tell a good writer from an amateur by the volume of scent referents in their books. I don't think I was consistent with this in "Dreamcarver," though it was there at least sporadically. This probably has something to do with thinking of my characters as humans more often than not. Having changed milieux entirely, though, I'm forcing myself to think of my characters as dolphins. I have to make up mannerisms of speech and body language that fit creatures who live in three dimensions, who have no legs and therefore no waists or hips, and for whom light versus dark is less important than sound versus silence. And I have to couch these mannerisms in language that my readers will automatically associate with the clichés and archetypes with which they are already familiar. My characters have to come across as simultaneously human and dolphin - dolphin for the purposes of plot but human for the purposes of character.
I suppose that's the soul of anthropomorphic writing, right there.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 04:47 pm (UTC)Hmm... "revenge is a beaching best deferred to another"? ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 04:54 pm (UTC)You will definitely see more snippets. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 04:57 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:17 pm (UTC)It would be interesting to do some in-depth research about the way that a certain animal senses the world and attempt to write from their perspective, but I wouldn't want to do it without a lot of research behind me, I don't think.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:27 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 08:45 pm (UTC)Where did you get this? Sounds interesting.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-15 02:00 am (UTC)Turns out, cats have more 'rods' than people previously believed, but they can see in the dark because they have an added something or other in their eyes that bounces the light around more. (Been a while since I read this, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details) The reason that people's eyes reflect red in a camera lens is because the light shines off the blood vessels in the back of the eye, whereas many cats have that greenish color because the light is shining off that added bouncy light layer thing.
(It sounded a lot more professional when the cat expert wrote about it, mind.)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-15 01:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 04:54 pm (UTC)Now, for me, that's part of the fun of PLAYING one, as well. It's no coincidence that I play a Bat in Ironclaw and work with Sonar in real life. When I play Lord Nikulai, I do my best to immerse myself in a mind that views the world in terms of the shape of echos first, and vision second.
Years ago, when I played my first Dragon PC in D&D, I'd always ask, "What do I smell?" That would stop most DMs in their tracks, alas, though that honestly wasn't WHY I did it...
Really. Honestly.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:00 pm (UTC)The only non-human I've ever played was Annarisse, and I wasn't playing her as a horse - I was playing her as a human. Writing the book was a bit different, but I could easily rewrite that book and make the characters human without losing anything of substance. That is not true of this book, and that's why I'm enjoying writing it so much.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:05 pm (UTC)It is that range that will be the center of my argument should I ever write a book describing how much of our culture is furry. After all, some of our culture's (Western culture, not furry culture) favorite stories fall solidly into that range, even if they are all the way at the 'cognizant animals' side.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:20 pm (UTC)Scars came closer to the "cognizant animals" line than Dreamcarver did, IMO. Or rather, it did so more consistently. Certainly Black Iron did a good job of that. Practice makes perfect!
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 04:57 pm (UTC)You've certainly hit the nail on the head.
Suggestion: seek out footage of dolphins and watch a lot of it. Watch them moving around and interacting with each other. See if you can find an aquarium or park near you that has dolphins and go watch them.
For me, writing an anthropomorph's mannerisms becomes MUCH easier once I have studied the animal's anatomy and can imagine all my bones and joints as if they belonged to the creature in question. With the vast majority of vertebrates, there are analogues for all of their bones in your body, and knowing that has helped me immensely.
But it may not help you; I am of scientific mind, and I don't know enough about you yet to know whether you are fundamentally of scientific or artistic mind, or what. But the watching dolphins thing should help no matter what you're like.
Other suggestion: If you haven't already, check out certain writings of Terry Pratchett, specifically those books that have a lot of the character Angua in them. (Feet of Clay, Jingo, and Fifth Elephant are probably the best of these, for this purpose.) Pratchett uses the metaphor of sight to describe how Angua (a werewolf) percieves scent, and how she remembers scents after returning to human shape. You may not want to use so obvious a metaphorical method for describing the senses humans aren't so good at, but it might give you some ideas. At least in your case you can focus on hearing, since that's the primary sense in many dolphin species, and it's easier to bend the human mind around fantastic hearing than an acute sense of smell.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:04 pm (UTC)Unfortunately, the nearest marine park to me costs about $40 a day to go to, and it's in Niagara Falls - I can't take the city bus to get there, and I can't afford it if I could.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:06 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:14 pm (UTC)What this means is that when writing about those characters, I can't use facial expressions, and holy crap is it ever hard to write tense political intrigue scenes without being able to refer to the quirk of someone's lips, etc. The upside is that it makes the scenes very physical, as the characters emote with their whole bodies by where they walk and what they do. It's challanging, but very interesting writing.
I think that if I were writing about dolphins and wanted to replace the sense of smell, I would have them be very sensative to the taste and texture of the water around them. (Texture as in what sorts of currents there were, the temperature, even the weight of it against their bodies). I don't know if dolphins are actually sensative to water that way, but it'd be how I'd compensate, and it would also draw the reader's attention repeatedly back to 'This is happening underwater! Look! There's water all over the damn place!'.
I had to write up some whole new terms of slang, because none of my characters have traditional religious associations. I stayed away from the word 'god' completely (there are Ancestors and Guardians and Household Spirits, but no gods), so I also can't use 'damn', or 'hell', or 'angel' or 'demon'. That can be pretty challanging. It's amazing how many times it'd just be easier to call someone an angel or demon, rather than having to think of some other synonym or description.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:24 pm (UTC)You know, I don't describe my characters physically hardly at all. I describe their body language and movements, especially during conversation, but nowhere so far have I stopped to describe what you would see looking at these characters. I suppose that fits with the book, because sight isn't that important to them, but it's something I may need to consider.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:35 pm (UTC)I don't understand your translation here at all. The original is a reference to the emotional state of the one taking revenge, as in not in the heat of the original anger. How is this reflected in the "dolphin" version?
Would a dolphin think of his or her location as being UNDER a sea? Dolphins live at the edge of both water and air, so wouldn't see things as a fish nor a land animal would. Thinking of a sea as a flat surface that one can be under is certainly a very limited human view of any body of water. It would be like humans using a phrase like "under the air", which we never are, of course.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 05:43 pm (UTC)You're right about "under" the sea. "In" would make more sense. That's the Little Mermaid fan in me coming out. . .
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 06:06 pm (UTC)But think of this. A human can be in the water, or *under* water, and they mean different things. (I think of in the water as specifically having parts above the surface, and more generally having bits of you or all of you covered in water; under water definitely implies submersion.) The key is that humans think of, and talk about, being partially or completely covered in water as a special case. To dolphins, that would be normal; they would have other special words for being partially or completely surrounded in *air*. So, they might think about being 'in the air' or 'above the water.' They do interact with the air - they have to - and generally do not seem to mind 'sticking a toe in' as it were, the same way we seem to enjoy playing in the water, but they can't stay there for too long.
Just stuff to think about.
Oh, on a semi-related note, there is much evidence to suggest that dolphins have a very keen sense of touch, especially in certain areas of their skin. They act like very touchy-feely humans; they touch up against one another a lot, in the way a human might glance over at a friend every now and then, or keep them in their peripheral vision.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 07:31 pm (UTC)My dolphins don't spend as much time in and around the surface as real dolphins would, because many of them are air-mages. They call air pretty regularly, and their parties include air pockets being maintained by people of insufficient rank to actually attend the party. I'm writing them as elementalists, though the only elements they are familiar with are air and water. There are a very few fire mages, mostly working with ore and the smelting thereof, and a few earth mages who mostly manifest as excellent fish herders and breeders, and sometimes gardeners.
Still, they do spend some time above the water, and work and communicate in that milieu on a fairly regular basis. Gotta remember to write that in.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 06:01 pm (UTC)Anyway, definite wishes of g'lcuk to you. I'm going to see about giving a short story a shot. But since I've never written anthropomorphic characters, it should be . . . interesting.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 07:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-15 12:17 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 06:06 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 07:25 pm (UTC)That is to say, no, I do not yet have pictures. :) I should talk to
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 07:37 pm (UTC)Can I put my two cents worth in? I know you are talking about dolphins but this fits in also.
When we were at Marineland and viewing the baby whales I was most impressed by the "midwife". She (?) does a dance with the new mother. Spiraling around her body almost touching. She also would suck on the new mom's nipples to help the milk come in. Another time she cleaned her of any lingering blood and fluids involved in child birth. She was a calming presence to the new mom and baby.
She would also nudge and glide along beside the baby.
I noticed the the baby was in complete sync with the mom's swimming. Always just a couple of inches above the upper body like the baby was attached by an invisible cord.
There was so much commuciation going on at different levels. Like Sonar,I could even imagine lullabyes begin "sung"
It was very calming and soothing.
And wonderful to watch.
I also was reminded of Madeline L'engles book "Ring of Endless Light" about communicating with the dolphins and how they responded to the heroines sorrow. It also deals with time and space and how the dolphins teach her about nonlinear time.
Hence the poem "The ring of Endless Light" by Harry Vaughan 17th century used in the title.
"I saw eternity the other night
Like a great ring of pure and endless light,
all calm, as it was bright.
And round beneath it, Time, in hours, days, years,
Driven by the sphere,
Like a vast shadow moved, in which the world and all her train were hurled"
Thanks for letting me share
Love Mom in law.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 07:53 pm (UTC)Of course, since the plot of the book centers around the fact that someone is keeping any babies from being born in high-ranking dolphin families, this may end up being a closing scene.
I know I've read that book, but I can't remember it very clearly. Can I borrow it from you? You can have my Jasper Fforde books . . . :)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 08:54 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-07-14 09:41 pm (UTC)