velvetpage: (Flights of Fancy)
[personal profile] velvetpage
Probably the most interesting thing about setting this book underwater, in a dolphin realm, is that many of the clichés of speech that we take for granted simply don't work. I'm hesitant to use words like "territory," "homeland," or "house," for example. I've kept "territory" because I can't think of a suitable replacement, but "homeland" has become "homesea," which my spellchecker doesn't like at all, and my dolphins don't live indoors so "house" is not really a problem.

I've been trying to create new clichés and mottos that fit dophin society. "Revenge is a dish best served cold" has no meaning in a place where food is not cooked, so I changed it to a rather clumsy reference to fat fish being more nourishing than thin, young ones. I'm going to have to tweak that a bit, but the basic idea is right. My characters don't say, "What on earth," they say, "What under the sweet green sea." They don't talk so much as sing to each other, and while I use the word "said" for ease of use, I also use the word "sang" from time to time, and more melodic synonyms liked croon, hum, intone - all of those I use often.

At the only writing workshop I made it to at Anthrocon, reference was made to the fact that senses are different when your characters are animals. You can tell a good writer from an amateur by the volume of scent referents in their books. I don't think I was consistent with this in "Dreamcarver," though it was there at least sporadically. This probably has something to do with thinking of my characters as humans more often than not. Having changed milieux entirely, though, I'm forcing myself to think of my characters as dolphins. I have to make up mannerisms of speech and body language that fit creatures who live in three dimensions, who have no legs and therefore no waists or hips, and for whom light versus dark is less important than sound versus silence. And I have to couch these mannerisms in language that my readers will automatically associate with the clichés and archetypes with which they are already familiar. My characters have to come across as simultaneously human and dolphin - dolphin for the purposes of plot but human for the purposes of character.

I suppose that's the soul of anthropomorphic writing, right there.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 04:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] collie13.livejournal.com
Oh, very cool! I've always had serious issues with anthropomorphic writers who seem to think other animal types would sense and think precisely as we do. What, a four legged animal would move/walk/sit/think just the same as a two legged one? I don't think so. And what about the symphonies of extraordinary hearing? The tonal textures of black and white vision? The subtleties of tasting scent? I'm very much looking forward to any snippets you might share with us -- what you're doing sounds so very neat!

Hmm... "revenge is a beaching best deferred to another"? ;)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 04:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
"Sturgeon makes a fatter revenge than sardine"?

You will definitely see more snippets. :)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 04:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] athelind.livejournal.com
Again, that's why playing a Bat is such fun. Not only are my perceptions and habits different from a human's, they're different from the other furries around me. Hanging from a comfortable rafter, dining on carefully-prepared insectivore cuisine -- and of course, the VERY different perspective a flyer has from the ground-bound.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] purplkat.livejournal.com
The interesting thing about animal vision is that it's not only different in terms of black and white vision vs. color (indeed, a lot of animals that we assumed could only see in black and white, such as cats, can, it turns out, see color). Many animals have different -ways- of seeing -- for example, they may be more sensative to motion than we are, or they may be more capable of discerning details out of their peripheral vision. They may be better at tracking at a distance, or they may have a very hard time seeing things that are sitting still.

It would be interesting to do some in-depth research about the way that a certain animal senses the world and attempt to write from their perspective, but I wouldn't want to do it without a lot of research behind me, I don't think.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
Dolphins' eyes are on the sides of their heads, and the eyes can track separately, which human eyes mostly can't. However, in other ways their eyes are not too different from humans. It appears from recent studies that their brains process sight information in much the way ours do - taking information from both eyes and creating one main image out of it, made up of many layers of images piled on top of each other. It would be much harder to describe insect vision than dolphin vision - I'm just picturing it as very sensitive to changes in light, capable of seeing more with less light, and about 300 degrees of visibility.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 08:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kesmun.livejournal.com
(indeed, a lot of animals that we assumed could only see in black and white, such as cats, can, it turns out, see color)

Where did you get this? Sounds interesting.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-15 02:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] purplkat.livejournal.com
I've read it in a couple of books. People thought that cats could only see in black and white because they originally thought cats saw in the dark because they had more (I think) 'cone' receptors in their eyes than 'rod' receptors. The 'cone' ones can see in low light, but can't see colors.

Turns out, cats have more 'rods' than people previously believed, but they can see in the dark because they have an added something or other in their eyes that bounces the light around more. (Been a while since I read this, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details) The reason that people's eyes reflect red in a camera lens is because the light shines off the blood vessels in the back of the eye, whereas many cats have that greenish color because the light is shining off that added bouncy light layer thing.

(It sounded a lot more professional when the cat expert wrote about it, mind.)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-15 01:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kesmun.livejournal.com
Cool. Thanks. I had someone tell me that cats were color-blind when I was good-naturedly complaining that my cat loves to be picked up when I wear a certain shirt and loves a certain blanket because they both match his eyes.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 04:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] athelind.livejournal.com
...senses are different when your characters are animals.

Now, for me, that's part of the fun of PLAYING one, as well. It's no coincidence that I play a Bat in Ironclaw and work with Sonar in real life. When I play Lord Nikulai, I do my best to immerse myself in a mind that views the world in terms of the shape of echos first, and vision second.

Years ago, when I played my first Dragon PC in D&D, I'd always ask, "What do I smell?" That would stop most DMs in their tracks, alas, though that honestly wasn't WHY I did it...

Really. Honestly.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
*snort* I don't believe you. I think you were testing your DMs, and the good ones were those who recovered quickly and the prepared for the question in the future.

The only non-human I've ever played was Annarisse, and I wasn't playing her as a horse - I was playing her as a human. Writing the book was a bit different, but I could easily rewrite that book and make the characters human without losing anything of substance. That is not true of this book, and that's why I'm enjoying writing it so much.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shavastak.livejournal.com
This brings us neatly into the 'cognizant animals' vs. 'humans in fursuits' discussion that comes up occasionally in furrydom. One of the things I love about Ironclaw is that it leaves the decision of where the game will lie on the spectrum entirely up to the players. You can even simulate multiple types in one world using the Race die (which is why [livejournal.com profile] athelind and I pushed so hard to get [livejournal.com profile] normanrafferty to keep it in 2.0, but that's another discussion for another day). Your first book - as with Scars - can be thought of as lying well towards the 'humans in fursuits' end, while this second book is clearly on the 'cognizant animals' side of things.

It is that range that will be the center of my argument should I ever write a book describing how much of our culture is furry. After all, some of our culture's (Western culture, not furry culture) favorite stories fall solidly into that range, even if they are all the way at the 'cognizant animals' side.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
Animal Farm, Watership Down, all the best stuff from Farley Mowat - the list goes on. :)

Scars came closer to the "cognizant animals" line than Dreamcarver did, IMO. Or rather, it did so more consistently. Certainly Black Iron did a good job of that. Practice makes perfect!

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shavastak.livejournal.com
I need to bring scent more into my Ironclaw games, to encourage characters to ask what they smell as well as what they see and hear. Must remember to do that, and to add scent to my room/scene descriptions.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 04:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shavastak.livejournal.com
And I have to couch these mannerisms in language that my readers will automatically associate with the clichés and archetypes with which they are already familiar. My characters have to come across as simultaneously human and dolphin - dolphin for the purposes of plot but human for the purposes of character. I suppose that's the soul of anthropomorphic writing, right there.

You've certainly hit the nail on the head.

Suggestion: seek out footage of dolphins and watch a lot of it. Watch them moving around and interacting with each other. See if you can find an aquarium or park near you that has dolphins and go watch them.

For me, writing an anthropomorph's mannerisms becomes MUCH easier once I have studied the animal's anatomy and can imagine all my bones and joints as if they belonged to the creature in question. With the vast majority of vertebrates, there are analogues for all of their bones in your body, and knowing that has helped me immensely.

But it may not help you; I am of scientific mind, and I don't know enough about you yet to know whether you are fundamentally of scientific or artistic mind, or what. But the watching dolphins thing should help no matter what you're like.

Other suggestion: If you haven't already, check out certain writings of Terry Pratchett, specifically those books that have a lot of the character Angua in them. (Feet of Clay, Jingo, and Fifth Elephant are probably the best of these, for this purpose.) Pratchett uses the metaphor of sight to describe how Angua (a werewolf) percieves scent, and how she remembers scents after returning to human shape. You may not want to use so obvious a metaphorical method for describing the senses humans aren't so good at, but it might give you some ideas. At least in your case you can focus on hearing, since that's the primary sense in many dolphin species, and it's easier to bend the human mind around fantastic hearing than an acute sense of smell.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
I'm sensing a return to National Geographic in my near future. I wonder what my library would have in stock in the way of videos?

Unfortunately, the nearest marine park to me costs about $40 a day to go to, and it's in Niagara Falls - I can't take the city bus to get there, and I can't afford it if I could.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shavastak.livejournal.com
Gah. Well, yes, marine parks tend to be amusement parks, with big ticket prices. Oh well. Movies, then! :)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] purplkat.livejournal.com
The noble race in the fantasy novel I'm working on are so beautiful that their faces glow, but paradoxically, the glow of their faces obscures their beautiful features entirely.

What this means is that when writing about those characters, I can't use facial expressions, and holy crap is it ever hard to write tense political intrigue scenes without being able to refer to the quirk of someone's lips, etc. The upside is that it makes the scenes very physical, as the characters emote with their whole bodies by where they walk and what they do. It's challanging, but very interesting writing.

I think that if I were writing about dolphins and wanted to replace the sense of smell, I would have them be very sensative to the taste and texture of the water around them. (Texture as in what sorts of currents there were, the temperature, even the weight of it against their bodies). I don't know if dolphins are actually sensative to water that way, but it'd be how I'd compensate, and it would also draw the reader's attention repeatedly back to 'This is happening underwater! Look! There's water all over the damn place!'.

I had to write up some whole new terms of slang, because none of my characters have traditional religious associations. I stayed away from the word 'god' completely (there are Ancestors and Guardians and Household Spirits, but no gods), so I also can't use 'damn', or 'hell', or 'angel' or 'demon'. That can be pretty challanging. It's amazing how many times it'd just be easier to call someone an angel or demon, rather than having to think of some other synonym or description.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
I hadn't worked much on the water-tasting element yet; mostly I've been thinking in terms of echolocation. I'll have to bring that in later on, because it's a good idea.

You know, I don't describe my characters physically hardly at all. I describe their body language and movements, especially during conversation, but nowhere so far have I stopped to describe what you would see looking at these characters. I suppose that fits with the book, because sight isn't that important to them, but it's something I may need to consider.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadow-maze.livejournal.com
"Revenge is a dish best served cold" has no meaning in a place where food is not cooked, so I changed it to a rather clumsy reference to fat fish being more nourishing than thin, young ones.

I don't understand your translation here at all. The original is a reference to the emotional state of the one taking revenge, as in not in the heat of the original anger. How is this reflected in the "dolphin" version?

My characters don't say, "What on earth," they say, "What under the sweet green sea."

Would a dolphin think of his or her location as being UNDER a sea? Dolphins live at the edge of both water and air, so wouldn't see things as a fish nor a land animal would. Thinking of a sea as a flat surface that one can be under is certainly a very limited human view of any body of water. It would be like humans using a phrase like "under the air", which we never are, of course.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 05:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
I didn't think about the emotion of the person taking the revenge, only the time factor - good revenge takes time, just like a nourishing fish is one that has grown over a long period. I kept the food metaphor rather than the emotional temperature metaphor.

You're right about "under" the sea. "In" would make more sense. That's the Little Mermaid fan in me coming out. . .

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shavastak.livejournal.com
Dolphins would think of themselves as being in the water, for sure...

But think of this. A human can be in the water, or *under* water, and they mean different things. (I think of in the water as specifically having parts above the surface, and more generally having bits of you or all of you covered in water; under water definitely implies submersion.) The key is that humans think of, and talk about, being partially or completely covered in water as a special case. To dolphins, that would be normal; they would have other special words for being partially or completely surrounded in *air*. So, they might think about being 'in the air' or 'above the water.' They do interact with the air - they have to - and generally do not seem to mind 'sticking a toe in' as it were, the same way we seem to enjoy playing in the water, but they can't stay there for too long.

Just stuff to think about.

Oh, on a semi-related note, there is much evidence to suggest that dolphins have a very keen sense of touch, especially in certain areas of their skin. They act like very touchy-feely humans; they touch up against one another a lot, in the way a human might glance over at a friend every now and then, or keep them in their peripheral vision.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 07:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
Yes, I've been writing them like that - circling around and brushing up against each other is not socially taboo, at least not amongst dolphins of similar ranks, but a very private character would avoid that kind of casual contact the same way a shy girl stays in a corner and tries not to be noticed.

My dolphins don't spend as much time in and around the surface as real dolphins would, because many of them are air-mages. They call air pretty regularly, and their parties include air pockets being maintained by people of insufficient rank to actually attend the party. I'm writing them as elementalists, though the only elements they are familiar with are air and water. There are a very few fire mages, mostly working with ore and the smelting thereof, and a few earth mages who mostly manifest as excellent fish herders and breeders, and sometimes gardeners.

Still, they do spend some time above the water, and work and communicate in that milieu on a fairly regular basis. Gotta remember to write that in.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 06:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bootler.livejournal.com
That makes a lot of sense, having to worry about entirely different ways of presenting your characters. I'm actually sad that I didn't make it to any of the writing workshops at AC, but really it's my own fault.

Anyway, definite wishes of g'lcuk to you. I'm going to see about giving a short story a shot. But since I've never written anthropomorphic characters, it should be . . . interesting.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 07:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
You don't really know until you try. :)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-15 12:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bootler.livejournal.com
'tis true. If nothing else, it'll be an experience.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nottheterritory.livejournal.com
Not being much of a furry, I find the biggest problem I'm having is knowing what your dolphins look like - you say 'dolphin' to me and I think of a literal dolphin, but you have referred to arms and such a few times... Got an illustration you can show?

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 07:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
Picture hands on the ends of flippers, and you'll pretty much have it. Other than that, they're straightforward dolphins.

That is to say, no, I do not yet have pictures. :) I should talk to [livejournal.com profile] jordangraywolf and see what he can draw for me.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 07:37 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hi Erin
Can I put my two cents worth in? I know you are talking about dolphins but this fits in also.
When we were at Marineland and viewing the baby whales I was most impressed by the "midwife". She (?) does a dance with the new mother. Spiraling around her body almost touching. She also would suck on the new mom's nipples to help the milk come in. Another time she cleaned her of any lingering blood and fluids involved in child birth. She was a calming presence to the new mom and baby.
She would also nudge and glide along beside the baby.
I noticed the the baby was in complete sync with the mom's swimming. Always just a couple of inches above the upper body like the baby was attached by an invisible cord.
There was so much commuciation going on at different levels. Like Sonar,I could even imagine lullabyes begin "sung"
It was very calming and soothing.
And wonderful to watch.
I also was reminded of Madeline L'engles book "Ring of Endless Light" about communicating with the dolphins and how they responded to the heroines sorrow. It also deals with time and space and how the dolphins teach her about nonlinear time.
Hence the poem "The ring of Endless Light" by Harry Vaughan 17th century used in the title.
"I saw eternity the other night
Like a great ring of pure and endless light,
all calm, as it was bright.
And round beneath it, Time, in hours, days, years,
Driven by the sphere,
Like a vast shadow moved, in which the world and all her train were hurled"
Thanks for letting me share
Love Mom in law.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 07:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
I'm definitely going to use the image of the midwife at some point in this book, because it's beautiful.

Of course, since the plot of the book centers around the fact that someone is keeping any babies from being born in high-ranking dolphin families, this may end up being a closing scene.

I know I've read that book, but I can't remember it very clearly. Can I borrow it from you? You can have my Jasper Fforde books . . . :)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 08:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] michellinator.livejournal.com
Hm. Do fish or sea mammals know they're wet? I guess yours do, since they interact with land creatures from time to time...

(no subject)

Date: 2005-07-14 09:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
Well, they certainly know when they're dry - it's very uncomfortable, and potentially dangerous for their skin to dry out.

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