velvetpage: (studious)
[personal profile] velvetpage
I know what I expect to happen, here. I'm wondering if my previous observations will pan out, here. Some of you may recognize the poll from [livejournal.com profile] bradhicks; he posted one very similar to it earlier today.

[Poll #931501]

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 08:20 pm (UTC)
ext_70331: tattoo (Default)
From: [identity profile] wyldraven.livejournal.com
Before I respond, a clarification, if you please.

or the purposes of grades or performance reviews

Does this refer only to school performance? You see, where I come from, the phrase "performance reviews" refers to employment. My answer is different based on the setting. You get one answer for learning / school, quite another for employees who claimed they could do the job from the outset.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 08:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
I meant it to apply to both, actually, but if the answer is different depending on setting, answer as for school and then put your work answer in a comment.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 08:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neebs.livejournal.com
My issue with the "work harder" part is that if you don't get it, you have to work harder to understand. If I get it right away, I won't have to "work harder" so I get penalized for that?? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what that really means, but that's my way of looking at it.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 08:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
That's exactly my problem with the "work harder" ideas. If two kids produce equal assignments according to the marking scheme, but one put in twice as much work as the other, who deserves the better mark? In my opinion, they should get the exact same mark, because the kid who put in less work should, theoretically, have been able to produce a better piece of work if he'd spent the extra time, and the better piece of work would have gotten him a better grade. Rewarding effort is a way of leveling the playing field between those who are smart and those who are less smart. Hard work is certainly important - but at the end of the day, it's product that counts for more.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 08:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neebs.livejournal.com
YES. That is the fancy-word way of saying what I was thinking but could not put into words. Thank you!

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 08:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
You're welcome. :) Oh, and I forgot something: I don't think praise should be based on output. Grades are about actual achievement, but praise should be based on effort. A good teacher should be able to make a C feel like a medal, and an A- feel like a slap in the face, if the C was the student's absolute best and the A- was not.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 08:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] failstoexist.livejournal.com
totally. my math teacher used to put a smiley face on A/A+ papers...but if a student brought the grade up from an F to a C-, for example, they got a smiley face too. Still got a C-, but their effort was recognized. I'm sure it made it a lot easier to deal with and much more motivating.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 09:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neebs.livejournal.com
YES. ALSO AGREE.

I swear, sometimes you are SO channeling my mom... (That's a good thing!)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 09:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melstra.livejournal.com
Hmmm...someone read my journal post yesterday? That wording sounds strangely familiar. :-)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 09:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
It was a good poem. :)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 08:33 pm (UTC)
ext_70331: tattoo (Default)
From: [identity profile] wyldraven.livejournal.com
Poll answer is for school. In a work setting, I'd go with A. You took the job with the understanding of what was expected. Most managers don't have the time (nor would it be fair to others) to "help" those who really can't do the job. If you can't carry your weight, find another job where you can. I made that mistake once, and I got fired for it, along with the employee I tried to "carry".

Again, this doesn't apply to school, training, apprenticeship, etc.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 08:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] failstoexist.livejournal.com
i think the same resources and help should be available to each person...if that person finds creative new resources, then cool. if the person asks for resources or help that are unusually over the top(too much assistance with things they should be able to do/figure out on their own) that should be noted. I think there should be a slight advantage given to people who are able to figure things out on their own, either via resources given to them or ones they find themselves. A variety of resources should be available to suit different people's styles of working.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 09:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anidada.livejournal.com
I answered B primarily because not everyone learns in the same way, but also because the idea of a blanket approach to learning (or judging knowledge) just doesn't sit well with me.

The phrase "work harder" rubs me the wrong way, too. Work smarter. Give the correct answer. Work in detail if necessary (scientific experiments, for instance), but you shouldn't have to work hard to gain validation if your results are correct. Say it takes one kid ten minutes to do a test that takes someone else an hour, and there's an hour allotted for the test, and they both get every question right. IMO, the person who worked faster deserves a higher mark, because it would suggest they've absorbed the knowledge and have kept it fresh in their mind. (Do teachers still give out marks greater than 100%? They did in my day. :)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 09:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anidada.livejournal.com
Caveat: this is not even beginning to discuss actual variations in learning styles, learning disabilities (diagnosed or not), or the practicality/feasibility of already-overtasked teachers trying to accomodate every individual child in a public school setting.

That's a rant for another time. ;)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 09:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anidada.livejournal.com
And as for work, I'd have to answer F. You shouldn't need any help to do your job (unless it's the kind of job where that's a given, I suppose?). Your performance should be judged on your output (quantity/quality of tasks assigned and completed), how your output contributes to the organization and fits into/over-and-above your job description, and (I wish I was kidding about this) your social skills and ability to function in the workplace. I'm not talking about whether or not someone is a RAH-HA!WOOHOO! team player, necessarily, but we can all point to several shining examples of people who need a course in basic courtesy, life skills (from hygeine to dressing themselves), and interpersonal dynamics. DESPERATELY.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 10:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tormentedartist.livejournal.com
I know it seems mean , but the world doesn't give you an A for effort in the real world. Other things come into it.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 11:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tormentedartist.livejournal.com
I messed up I meant to choose a )

(no subject)

Date: 2007-02-20 11:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com
I was wondering. :)

My thoughts

Date: 2007-02-21 03:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melstra.livejournal.com
I had a hard time deciding on this because none of them completely fit. B was probably the closest, but I said "A" because in some ways, I felt they were the same. I would reword them both to say "To give everyone exactly the same ACCESS TO resources and help". Sure, some students will need more than others, but I'm there to help ANYONE who wants/needs more. If a really bright kid is motivated enough to want to come talk to me about their work, that's fine with me. While it's true that I do offer more time than usual on exams to students with a diagnosed disability, that's somewhat different than tailoring everything to each individual student.

As for evaluation...I vary a bit on that, too (both for work and school issues). For me, there are some set standards. I teach German, for example. If you don't meet certain minimum standards, you're going to be very much at a disadvantage when you get to the next level. So, I am doing no one a favor if I let them slide on just because they "worked hard." And yet, I do see the merit in rewarding those who worked above and beyond what I asked, regardless of their uultimate output. My excel gradesheets are complicated for that very reason. I set a minimum standard, and in order to get a decent grade, you have to meet it. But only students who really work hard are going to get points in preparation/participation which will add that little something extra. If things come incredibly easy to you and you don't have to work--well, then you'd best be engaged and willing to participate.

I almost didn't post on this because I knew I'd ramble on. Sorry.

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