Question

[velvetpage]

I came across this link twice in the space of five minutes yesterday, and most reactions to it were comments like, "This mom is my new hero."

Except for one, who claimed the mom was being abusive with her zero-proof attitude and willingness to publicly humiliate her son.

So, dear readers, which is it? Is she a reasonable mom enforcing a reasonable restriction on the use of a vehicle still in her name, or is she a tyrant and abusive parent?

Comments

[etherlad.livejournal.com]

The deal she had made with her son about the car was a) no alcohol, and b) always lock it.

She said she believes her son when he claims that it wasn't his alcohol she found. It's still alcohol.

So either he had alcohol in the car knowingly, or a friend put it there without his knowledge because the car was unlocked.

Either way, she followed through. Good for her, I say.

[catarzyna.livejournal.com]

I don't think she was mean at all. Not only was he drinking illegally but in a car. That is a loaded weapon! He needs to learn consequences before his actions are irreversible and someone dies.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I don't think the person who objected was objecting to the kid's loss of vehicle - it was more about the public humiliation of that ad. What do you think about that aspect? Would you find that abusive?

[catarzyna.livejournal.com]

No, I don't find that abusive. He isn't 16 here, he is a legal adult and he made an adult agreement.

LA says around the world DUIs are cause to have your picture displayed in newspapers.

One more thought...

[catarzyna.livejournal.com]

I meant to also point out that she is very self-derogatory. Why else would she refer to herself in such unglowing terms. To me she seems a bit insecure in her decision. I get the impression she is keeping the ad in not so much to shame him, as to convince herself she did the right thing; hence the need for more feedback.

Re: One more thought...

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

No I think she did it to be cute, or to kind of point out she doesn't hate her kid, and all sorts of things. I've said some things like that and trust me, I'm not insecure.

Re: One more thought...

[girlydoll.livejournal.com]

I think it also helped sell the car for full asking price...I bet that was the main drive behind the "name calling" in the add to begin with.

The punishment was to sell the car, the self name calling was to get a good price.

Now that it is all over the internet she says she believes her kid, making the only punishment the selling of the car, but probably raising him to some sort of local celebrity at school.

I think she did the right thing, regardless, alcohol should not be in the reach of the driver to begin with but in the trunk, even if it was not his, he was still breaking the law, and she said NO alcohol, not it's ok if it is someone else’s...

[momentrabbit.livejournal.com]

I can't even really get snarky about the advert: it's not particularly humiliating, from my reading. Doesn't name the son publicly (though in her neighbourhood, I'm guessing everybody knows who's car it is, and his friends certainly will).

I don't know if the deal - the two conditions - specified that if he was caught, the car was a goner. But, well.. yeah, I think I'm siding with the mother here.

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

She bought it, so I'm assuming it was still in her name. Otherwise, she stole it. I understand why she did it, and I'm sure she thought it was tough love, but it doesn't really deal with the underlying problem if her son is drinking to the extent that he's drinking in the car. Public humiliation could make that problem worse.

So taking the car away if he was drinking was, I think, a necessary step, but I'm not sure about how she did it.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming the car was in her name. Most parents don't give kids cars in their own names while they're still living at home - at least, none of my friends' parents ever would have.

She's a Horton!

[lasarina.livejournal.com]

I said what I meant, I meant what I said... and when it comes to alcohol and driving, I would have taken out the same ad. I do believe she is milking it a bit though for the extra week after the car is sold.

Of course, you are talking to a mother, who upon being accused of being a Nazi, calmly replied,"You begin goose-stepping on your right foot," and went back to reading the paper. I am also the parent who came up with a one day cure of class tardiness for one of her friend's sons. This child, in the oh-so-lovely-middle-school-age bracket was in danger of not passing his classes due to tardiness between the classes. In other words, showing off, goofing off, hanging with his friends. All the usual from the school (detention, ISS, suspension) and at home (grounding, no computer, tv, friends) wasn't working. So I told Mom to take a day off, and walk him to each class and sit in the back of the classroom during classes. And inform him that this would happen everytime he got a tardy. It took 2 classes. He broke down, begged Mom to go away, and was never late to another class.
It *does* take a village to raise a child, and part of that is social ridicule if the stakes are life-altering, or life-threatening. I was fortunate that I had a village in which to raise my children. I had the myriad of "aunts" and "uncles" watching out for my kids. Most people in modern day society don't.

Re: She's a Horton!

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I love you. I wish there were more parents with the guts to do that with their children.

I am also fortunate in my village, with all my relatives living so close and all of them being people I trust with my kids.

Re: She's a Horton!

[catsarah.livejournal.com]

Just your relatives?

Re: She's a Horton!

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Definitely not just my relatives. Our friends are a part of the village, too. *hugs*

Re: She's a Horton!

[girlydoll.livejournal.com]

OMG, that is a great idea, I am writting it down so I never forget that and spinning ways to use it on my kids right now for bad school behaviour.

[firesign10.livejournal.com]

She took a stand and then she stuck to it. I don't think she was excessive - she had made her position clear. I applaud her for following through. So many parents "say" but don't "do".

And it sure doesn't hurt to show people it's more important to be their kids' parent rather than their "buddy".

[dornbeast.livejournal.com]

She laid out the rules quite clearly. If her son's story is true, he didn't take care to have his friend take the alcohol away. If, on the other hand, he's lying, he's not only breaking her rules, but state law - the Iowa drinking age is 21.

I'll call this a reasonable restriction.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

And there's a good chance the friend was breaking the law, since it's quite likely most of a nineteen-year-old's buddies are also under 21.

[asqmh.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's abusive. I think people are far too free with that word.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

The comment was made by someone who was abused (not on my friends list) so I read it as that person projecting their experience onto this one.

[asqmh.livejournal.com]

If the mother habitually and pointlessly humiliates her son, if she is in no way stable in her methods of punishment, if she is punitive for the slightest act, then yes, I'd say it was abusive. But as a singular occasion reaction to a major flub on his part, I don't find it abusive. And we have no context in which to put it, so we have no way to know whether or not it is, in fact, a continuance of a pattern of abusive behavior on her part. Does that make sense?

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Yes, and it's pretty much exactly what I said to him.

[paka.livejournal.com]

Depends who owns the car. If she doesn't own the title she's totally out of bounds. If she does, then I think she should first negotiate with her son about this. I also think she probably shouldn't be snooping to this extent, although I'm not quite sure how to basically say no without doing so.

Selling the car is cool by me, and it's not an abusive action.

Publically humiliating the kid and bragging about what a badass person she is to do so is not cool. That borders on an abusive action and hints at a seriously abusive personality. Automatically I start thinking "person who's been a jerk to this kid for his entire life, and has justified it by telling herself how badassed she is," and "pushy adult who possibly needed to make a quick buck, and this was a convenient excuse."

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Most newspapers require you to prove ownership of a vehicle you try to list with them, so I suspect she bought the car for her son but retained ownership for exactly this reason.

It sounds like she did negotiate, in the sense that she set down two rules a little over a month ago, and at least one was broken. My kids get asked once (twice if I'm being lazy) and then they're expected to hop to it; I don't see the point in giving extra opportunities to screw up two simple rules.

As for the public humiliation - well, that's the point that's really questionable. As one person pointed out, his name's not in the ad, so it's not as public as it at first appears, but even so, his community would know. To give her the benefit of the doubt, I get the impression she was shocked at the positive feedback she received - she seemed to be expecting the opposite. I don't think she should have left up the ad, but I don't think the ad was a bid for attention at the beginning, and I doubt she's been pushing the kid around his whole life - if she had been, he would probably not have allowed his friend to break the rules. Pushy parents make pushover kids who toe the line.

[geonarcissa.livejournal.com]

It's not abusive. Too many teenagers die in car accidents, and more parents should take a hard-line stance on car rules.

It's a hell of a lot more humiliating to have your name in the court docket for a DUI charge.

[saomigray.livejournal.com]

I agree with most of the other comments. She only had two rules, and he broke one. By following through, she not only showed her son she meant what she said, but hopefully taught him to expect people to do what they say and to do so himself.

There was nothing in the ad that seemed humiliating to me. Just a statement of facts. He may have been embarrassed, but I doubt he will get caught breaking his mom's rules again. :)

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I read a bit of an interview, and I think that its fine. He broke the rules, and she not just punished him, but gave one that fit the crime. The car is a responsibility, and he broke a car related responsibility. It just fits. I don't think it's awful humiliation in a world of youtube and myspace and all the sorts of things kids do, and she did make a few funny digs about herself. It kind of reminds me of Amish shunning in that once the act is over, it's over. I have this feeling that once it dies down they'll work on it and everything will be ok.

[gracevlikevrain.livejournal.com]

Awesome. :)

I really don't think not having alcohol in a car (who cares who put it there!) is too much to ask your UNDERAGE son...especially when the parents bought him the car.

Embarrassing him in the paper sure beats standing next to him in court while he looses his license for a few years after he gets, at the very least, a minor in possession, and maybe even a DUI. And isn't there some other law about not having open containers in a vehicle? It's a good thing she caught him and not a cop! I'm sure the courts wouldn't have been so kind.

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

What the...? The guy was 19: i.e. he is a legal adult and she has no business making rules about his conduct beyond "house rules" that apply to everyone living with her, period. Plus, she had given the car to him (yes, it was in her name, but she was still describing the car as "his"). That means that morally, she has no right to control how he uses it; if she wanted that right, she should have told him, "I'm buying this car that I'll let you use under these conditions", not "I'm buying you this car". Who REALLY owns a car like that is something that needs to be clearly defined.

I'm with your friend on this one, *edit* unless the mom would have been legally culpable for the alcohol being in the car, in which case she should never have described the car to her son as a gift. As I said before: if it was a gift, she had no right to control how it was used or to take it away at will. If it was still hers, and she wanted to maintain control, she shouldn't have ever described it as his.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

He's a legal adult living in a state where the drinking age is 21, not nineteen, and he's living at home. Also, she DID put conditions on the use of the car: two rules, no alcohol, and leave the doors locked. That was at Thanksgiving in November.

How I used cars that were in my parents' names was a matter for discussion when I was a lot older than 19, as long as I lived in their home.

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

Again, if she wanted that control, she still shouldn't have described it as "his". I just think ownership of that sort of thing needs to be very, very clear. I suppose it could have been clear with the son, though, given that the car was in the mother's name, and the ad was just less clear.

And I maintain that once someone is a legal adult, the parents have no more authority over them than they would over an older relative living in the home. The authority to make "house rules", or rules regarding objects that are CLEARLY owned by the homeowners is still there; the authority over other aspects of the offspring's life is gone.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I think the authority to require that an adult child living in my house is not breaking the law and using my property to do it, will always exist - and having alcohol in the car was breaking the law. (I'm presuming that the son knew full well that the car actually belonged to the mother and was his to use provided he followed the rules.)

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

Okay, assuming the last sentence is true, fair enough. That requirement needs to apply to anyone living in the house who doesn't own the house, though.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, but the law for the parents is different in this case from the law for the son. He's underage in his state, so drinking is illegal for him, but not for them. Requiring him to follow the law - i.e. no alcohol in the car - is going to be different than the parents' requirement for themselves - for example, putting all alcohol in the trunk.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Lots of parents give conditional gifts when they give cars. In fact, I'd call it bad parenting to give a kid a car and not supervise how they're using it. As long as it's laid out from the start that there are rules - and it would appear that it was laid out - describing the car as "his" is probably just a way of distinguishing it from the other cars in the driveway.

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

If describing it as "his" is just a way of distinguishing it from the other cars in the driveway, fine. If, from the outset, it's "this car is bought for your use, but it's in my name and thus I have control over it", I guess that's reasonable. It's an arrangement that I would be very uncomfortable entering into with my parents as an adult, but at least it establishes ownership.

Also, the "bad parenting" issue doesn't apply to adult offspring. As far as I'm concerned, authority over the offspring is gone at that point. If parent/offspring are going to shift to a respectful adult/adult relationship, the parent has to stop trying to claim authority. I believe this is why most parents and young adults can't get along until the young adult moves out; the parents keep trying to claim authority, but that is developmentally inappropriate for a young adult who needs to establish independence.

[kesmun.livejournal.com]

I really really disagree with you that parenting stops at legal adulthood. Parenting never stops. I was 23, had a car legally in my own name, and lived in my parents' house. I had to live with their rules. Yes, those rules were a little more relaxed, and they wouldn't have taken my car, but they were still my parents and acted like it.

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

The relationship doesn't stop...the authority does, in my view.

You are really in a minority, I think. Most young adults I know have not gotten along with their parents if they live at home, unless the parents treat the young adults as essentially autonomous fellow adults. It's not that the personal connection is lost...but the young adult's life should be his or her own.

[kesmun.livejournal.com]

I didn't have a specific curfew, but I did know that my parents wanted to know where I was and at least have a general idea of who I was with. The thing about parents is that whether you like it or not, for good or ill, their influence over you never stops. That influence will, of course, wane with age and distance, but the closer you are, the closer that influence is to authority. And regardless of the eyes of the law, especially with the maturity levels shown by many "young adults" (me included - I wasn't the smartest cookie in the box at 23, I did some rather dumb stuff) that authority needs to extend beyond the eighteenth birthday. Personally, I'd rather see parents err on the side of authoritativeness than on the side of permissiveness.

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't have a huge objection to the knowing where you are/who you're with thing if it goes both ways. With my parents, when I lived at home, it generally did.

I don't agree with you on the authority needing to extend beyond the eighteenth birthday. By the eighteenth birthday, most people have been physically adult for several years (except for some aspects of brain development), and I think that some independence is usually necessary for them to start acting like adults.

[kesmun.livejournal.com]

The best parents walk a fine line between authoritative and permissive. When good parents err, in my opinion, they do so on the side of authoritative, at least early on. Much of it depends on the individual kid, of course, but a 19-year-old needs a little more authority than a 23 y/o. When you're an "adult" but still young, your relationship with your parents isn't going to be an equal relationship. It just isn't. Especially if you're living under their roof. Most especially if they're still doing the bulk of the providing for you (buying the kid a car seems like they're still doing most of the providing).

Permissiveness can come as the kid shows more maturity. One of the best ways to show maturity, I think, is to actually show independence (getting a job or going to school or both, maybe offering to help with some of the bills, generally showing an awareness that there's more to life than being a kid) within the strictures of authority rather than trying to rebel against that authority. I don't think that treating your 19-year-old kid like you would a 30-year-old unrelated adult living with you is necessary for them to start acting like an adult.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I think maybe the two of you are operating under different definitions of authority. Kesmun sees it as one step up from influence, and you're seeing it as the right to order a kid around.

It seems to me that parenting a teen, especially an older teen, requires a gradual release of responsibility. Too sudden, and the kid has no mooring and is set adrift to mess up; too gradual, and the kid feels trapped and untrusted. A good parent is walking that line, gradually releasing more authority to the kid. When it comes to big items, like a potentially lethal vehicle in the parent's name, the authority can and should be released a lot more gradually than authority over, say, how the kid spends her allowance. In this case, since the car was such a new acquisition, the mom was checking up to see if the kid was following her rules, which were not at all unreasonable for a car that she owned and a son still in his teens.

Authority should shift to influence so gradually that neither one notices the difference most of the time. Depending on the family in question and the personality of the kid, that gradual release of authority can go past legal adulthood and still be good parenting.

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

I also do not think that public humiliation is conducive to making that shift to a respectful adult/adult relationship.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I don't see what she did as publicly humiliating - except for the part about keeping the ad up for another week. Embarrassing, certainly, but most of the people who would actually know who was involved would have known anyway when the son started taking the bus again.

[toad-hall.livejournal.com]

I think the mom was perfectly within her bounds. I think there should be more public shaming for stupidity like DUI/driving with open alcohol. I'm with lasarina - it does take a community and sometimes it's up to more people than just mom/dad to say, hey! you're being a twit. smarten up before you hurt yourself and others.

[siobhan63.livejournal.com]

Reminds me of the story before xmas about the dad who'd bought the impossible-to-get Guitar Hero III for his son as a surprise for xmas, then caught his son smoking pot, so put the game up for sale on eBay fully explaining that he was selling it to punish his son for smoking pot. Personally i think both parents are idiots, but meh. There are better, more mature ways to deal with things like that then taking out public "ads".

[girlydoll.livejournal.com]

Two minds on it.

I agree with the selling of the car, she said no booze, he had booze in the car. Friends, the green giant or his, booze was in the car.

Now, the wording of the add is the funny part. I believe she worded it that way to get top dollar, and she did so in a way as to not name her kid. The only people who would know would be anyone who read the add and happened to know him and his number. A bit of a brow raiser, but excusable. Now that it is all over the internet is another story though. It is out of her hands to an extent (she had to agree to this for it to be a story) But she is fast not to implicate her son in any wrong doing (booze being his) and has now raised him to local celebrity status at his school I bet (either good or bad, still well known) Keeping the add in for an additional week though after all of this is overkill and ego stroking for her I think. And I don't agree with that. She should have stopped at the selling of the car and then pulled the add.


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