Want to get drama out of a parenting community?

[velvetpage]

Ask if perpetuating a belief in Santa is lying, or is it okay for an eleven-year-old to still wholeheartedly believe in Santa.

Oy vey, the DRAMA. I know of at least two defriendings so far.

For the record: Being a Unitarian has really freed me up on this front, because I don't have to deal with, "If Jesus is real, why isn't Santa real?" I can truthfully say that Jesus (or God) is at least as real as Santa (possibly more) because they are both cultural myths whose purpose is to perpetuate certain core values - in fact very similar core values, though there are a lot of interpretations of Jesus that are expressing different ones. The story doesn't have to be literally true in order to contain valuable truth. In fact, its literal truth is irrelevant to its mythical truth. No one would ever think to argue that Aesop's Fables were literally true - but their value in perpetuating culturally-appropriate lessons is undisputed.

I'd like to see my kids make the gradual transition from believing all the parts of the story literally, to realizing that some of it is clearly not true, to realizing that its literal truth has no impact on why we do it. Santa is about charity, and love, and peace. He's a visual representation of those things. (We can de-emphasize the other things he represents in Western culture.)

Comments

[slinksgirl.livejournal.com]

I honestly do not understand why anyone cares if someone else's child believes in Santa. REALLY, WHO CARES????? Aren't there some formula feeders out there to criticize or something? People having elective c-sections? SPANKERS?

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

There was spank wank on there, too - I didn't even look at it.

I just don't get, "There must be something developmentally wrong with them" or "they must be idiots" for an eleven-year-old who still believes.

[slinksgirl.livejournal.com]

Or maybe they are just imaginative. My goodness, some kids just are not super-practical-and-realistic. Some kids like to live in a fantasy world. There is nothing wrong with that. I wonder why half of the booj spends all of their free time playing WoW, which is a game laden with fantasy, when they find it so difficult to understand that a child might want to continue believing in Santa for a little bit longer.

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

Well...the issue, I think, is being able to distinguish between fantasy and reality.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I'm not convinced that an eleven-year-old holding onto a childhood belief with teeth and toenails constitutes an inability to distinguish fantasy from reality; I think it's more likely that the kid just refuses to admit to herself what she really knows deep down.

[slinksgirl.livejournal.com]

Sure, but isn't fantasy fun? I guess I just don't understand why it is wrong if an 11-year-old thinks Santa is still real.

[zorinlynx.livejournal.com]

I can understand the various viewpoints.

What bugs me most though is how personally people take this stuff. Defriendings? I need to start handing out chill-pills!

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

One particularly angry comment was met with, "Can I offer you a Midol?" Best answer of the thread. :)

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

Isn't eleven the age at which kids start to drop the belief anyway? Seems to me that inexorable progress towards young adulthood will take of the issue on its own accord. Meanwhile, the belief is probably just comforting to a kid who's becoming aware that everything he she understands about life is going to be overturned PDQ. I mean, at eleven, you're looking ahead at the sixth graders and seventh graders and something drastic has just happened to them, something that you have no real hope of understanding. Yet you understand that there's a sort of irresistible gravity pulling you down the well to adolescence whatever that actually is.. Besides, myths are never about objective truth. They're about the kinds of truths that go into lessons about how to live.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Yep, eleven is just on the cusp of abstract thought taking over from concrete thought. Quite a few eleven-year-olds aren't ready to give up on childhood beliefs yet - at least not out loud.

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

The kids I knew dropped it around seven. I think that was the year my parents told me--they did it because the Sesame Street parents' magazine had an article on telling your kids about Santa, I was a precocious reader who always wanted to read anything parenting-related, and they wanted me to find out from them rather than the article.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

It might have been just threats. There were two in Merlyn's journal.

[merlyn4401.livejournal.com]

Nah, no defriendings yet.

And honestly, it wasn't the Santa thing. It was the "lol you poor americans don't know what togetherness and family mean" comment.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

That bugged me, too.

[merlyn4401.livejournal.com]

For someone so adamant about her culture being respected, she seems to have no problem slamming the rest of us.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

It strikes me as extremely defensive - hoisting herself up by pushing others down.

[merlyn4401.livejournal.com]

Yep. She kept saying how the rest of us were saying things like "Christmas without Santa sucks" or whatever, and when I asked her to link to ANY comment in my journal that said that, you could hear crickets chirping. She was reading a LOT into things that weren't there. Did it in the booj thread, too.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

That's about 90% of her comments, right there.

[r-caton.livejournal.com]

Pull 'em in on a 14-12... not believing in Columbus
(belief in Cleveland, Cincinnati and Toledo being optional)

[hendrikboom.livejournal.com]

And both the Santa and the Jesus stories were originally based on real people, and the stories got out of hand.

I told my children that Santa was a real person who lived about 1600 years ago and died, but that his work was so important that now a secret society exists to carry it on.

And maybe, someday, when they grow up, they'll be part of that secret society too.

This is pretty well the literal truth, dressed up in a story.

Before a certain age, they simply would not believe me.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I really, really like that explanation. I think I might tell Elizabeth that one when she starts to ask questions - as I suspect she will this year or next.

[jadedissola.livejournal.com]

That is an excellent explanation, and you can have so much fun with it too. If my parents had told me that as a kid, I would have been all about undercover elves at the mall... (OK, maybe I had a bit of an overactive imagination as a kid. ;) )

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

My kids firmly believe their grandfather is Santa, and all the other Santas are just helping Opa because it's too big a job for one person. That belief can easily morph into this one.

[jadedissola.livejournal.com]

I remember the Christmas pictures you showed. I'd believe he was Santa too if I were them. ;) But yeah, that is definitely something you can run with and the whole family can have fun with it.

[amazonvera.livejournal.com]

I used to believe that, too! Mostly because my grandpa did and still really does look exactly like Santa.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

So does my FIL. He has the red suit, the white beard, the leftovers of a Dutch accent - the whole nine yards. He has a regular seasonal gig at a mall, and does parties and such during the holidays as well. He lives across the street from the school, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out half the kids that go to it believe that Santa lives across the street. I know a bunch of kids in Elizabeth's class believe that.

[hendrikboom.livejournal.com]

Every now and then some little kid recognises me as Santa. I walk past one and she turns to me. As I walk away I hear her waying "Maman, pere Noel!"

No. My winter coat isn't red. I seem to be identified anyway.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Something about Dutch guys with beards. . .

[paka.livejournal.com]

Jeez, it's Santa Claus. Kids deserve some space for fantasy, and as much as we're completely and utterly encased in Santa-whatever come November, it's not like anyone's really pushing Santa on the kids.

[jadedissola.livejournal.com]

And this is why I skipped over that post. I just knew such a simple question was going to explode into massive wankery. (I tend to lurk there.) I also won't touch that spanking one with a ten-foot pole.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I avoid the spanking ones for the most part. This one, well - I'm coming to a better relationship with my views on mythology, religious belief, and their interaction with this concept we call truth. I'm more willing to wade into it now.

[jadedissola.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I can see how that can be sort of freeing in a way to be able to discuss it without discomfort (well, your discomfort at any rate). I remember how nice it was to have conversations about religion and belief without all my hang-ups about being right or wrong, or caring what other people thought about it.

I'm always amazed at what will set people off, and I never thought the Santa thing was a big deal to start with. My parents pretty much let me come to my own conclusions once I hit a certain age. They were content to let me believe as long as I wanted, though they didn't put as much effort into hiding it as they did when I was, say, four or five. Maybe it's because I wasn't raised in an overly religious household, but when I learned Santa wasn't real, I still never thought God or Jesus were fake. They were on a wholly different level than Santa back then. Kind of hard to explain, but as a child it seemed so logical to me.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

You know, I look at the things people think you should give up as you age, and I think, Christ, no wonder no one wants to grow up in this country, when our vision of "grown up" is so bleak and boring.

Okay, granted, I'm usually thinking that in terms of things like fanfic and D&D, but it's part and parcel, you know?

[bodhifox.livejournal.com]

Aren't your children related to Santa? I've seen the pictures, and that dude? He IS Santa. Or Kris Kringle, whatever. I want him to come to my house and bring me things.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

If he hears there's a little girl named Claire involved, he just might. :)

[morpheus0013.livejournal.com]

I popped my head in to read that post last night, and I'm ashamed to say this, but all I could do was laugh. It was mostly in a "good lords no" kind of way rather than a "ha ha" way, but holy crow. It made me wonder if basic psychology would just blow some minds in there.

[amazonvera.livejournal.com]

I don't really give a crap if people teach their kids about Santa or not, but

1) Saying that just teaching them about Santa is "lying" is ridiculous. Imagination and storytelling are essential to childhood.

2) People who jump through 27 back-bending hoops of extraordinary fiction to convince their doubting 8-9-10-11-12-year-old that Santa really is real kind of creep me out. At that point, it is a bit more like lying (which gets especially funky in a parent/adult-child relationship), and also walking a fine line toward attempting to forcibly stunt your child's natural maturation.

All, in all, I agree with your take on it. Santa's literal reality isn't essential to his value.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Yeah, when my kids start asking, "But how could?" questions about Santa, I'll shut up and let them make sense of it, and turn it back on them. When they come right out and ask me if he exists, I'll tell them that the literal version of the story is false - and then relate it back to all the other myths that we get truth from. I won't perpetuate the story beyond its natural best-before date. Neither will I interfere with their thought processes by telling them. I have faith that my kids are smart enough to figure it out when the time is right for them.

[kores-rabbit.livejournal.com]

Ah, instant drama. Santa is to Parenting Community as Mentos are to Diet Coke?

I made the Santa Realization around six or seven years of age. I wanted to believe and I recall feeling afraid that if I did not, I would no longer get gifts.

I do agree with the fable/mythos providing valuable life lessons to people. Be generous and giving and kind. People will like you. These are good qualities!

[lyricmaniac.livejournal.com]

I can see it both ways. I get what both sides were saying. So glad I wasn't around to respond in that thread.