velvetpage: (studious)
velvetpage ([personal profile] velvetpage) wrote2007-01-30 12:49 pm

Professional women, higher education, and other ramblings

I was thinking again this morning on a topic that often occupies my thoughts, at least peripherally - the problem of higher education and careers that require it, for women and mothers.

Let me elaborate.

When i was finishing my fourth year of university, I was one of about half my program who were approached by faculty with a request that I apply for the Masters program in my field (French Linguistics.) I had the marks. I had the contacts in the department. I was assured that if I applied, I'd get in, and that I would have a T.A. job for the duration of the program.

I didn't really think about it at the time, because I already had. I turned it down. Two months after finishing my B.A., I got married, and two months after that, i went to Teachers' College for my one-year B.Ed. program. The following September, I started working as a teacher, at a salary of almost forty grand. I didn't really discuss the decision with Piet, either, though we did discuss whether we should get married before or after Teachers' College. I'm very glad we decided on before, for various reasons that don't belong in this post.

My reasoning had nothing to do with ability and everything to do with life goals. I wanted a career. I also wanted to have a child, hopefully before turning thirty. I wanted a house, a stable income, a job that wouldn't require that I move - I had done enough moving. In short, I was ready to move on with the benchmarks of adulthood. At least, that was how I phrased it to myself.

I know several other teachers whose reasoning was very similar to mine - including the half-dozen or so from my department at Mac, who went on to TC with me at Brock or elsewhere. My friends list is full of women who have managed their children, their educations, and their careers, in various ways. Almost all of them have, at some point or another, agonized over these choices. It seems to have become a rite of passage for educated women to agonize over the mix of parenting and career choices in their lives.

Someone in another journal read a short version of that story, and claimed that the subtext was, "Women can't be good mothers and good professionals at the same time." Now, I'm sure there are people who think that, and I'm sure there are many women who feel pressured to give up on their professional lives in order to raise their children. I'm not denying that. But that subtext is not present in my story. I chose what I did for many reasons, but the ability to do both things took a back seat, always, to my willingness to do them. I didn't want that PhD badly enough to delay or deny myself the other things I had set as goals. I chose not to go into law because the extreme workload of many lawyers didn't appeal to me, in part because it would make family life more stressful. And, as I pointed out to her, I AM a good mother and a good professional, at the same time.

So, friends list: tell me your stories. Are you delaying children in order to get that grad degree? Did you have children while working on higher education? Have you experienced that subtext?

And, while we're at it: it occurs to me that universities have it backwards. The most expensive years are usually the last years. Medical school costs a lot more than a B.Sc. Tuition on undergrad degrees is regulated in Canada; tuition on graduate and professional degrees is not. It would seem more logical to do exactly the opposite. School should force students to prove academic ability before continuing beyond a B.A., but the financial obstacles should be removed as the academic ones become more stringent. Discuss. :)

[identity profile] dornbeast.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 06:42 pm (UTC)(link)
School should force students to prove academic ability before continuing beyond a B.A., but the financial obstacles should be removed as the academic ones become more stringent.

Economics and what is right are at odds here. The value of a higher degree is worth more than the value of having a B.A. in a matching discipline. Something that is worth more should cost more.

At the same time, there's the awareness that somebody who simply can't afford the further training may be the next genius in that field, but nothing may come of it without postgraduate studies.

[identity profile] curtana.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 06:46 pm (UTC)(link)
I have two degrees, and I may or may not go back for a PhD at some point. This decision has comparatively little to do with my choice to have a child at this point in my life, and much more to do with my decision to marry a man who was also on an academic career path, and further along it than me. This means that, in order for him to find a permanent university position, he will need to go where the job is - we can't pick and choose where we're going to live, which means there is no guarantee that it'll be somewhere I can do a degree, let alone find a job with that degree afterwards.

I had two opportunities to do a PhD, and turned both of them down because I was already working in my field - something that most history MAs can't say. I was very, very lucky to have the job I did, and I wasn't prepared to give it up in exchange for a degree that might net me a better job, but might also be a lot of work for nothing more than my own personal interest in the subject. I still believe that my years of work experience will probably serve me better in the long run, career-wise, than the PhD would have - though it would probably be even better to have both!

The decision to have a baby came about because I was employed at an institution that would give me a very beneficial maternity leave (topping it up to 95% of my full pay for some of the year - 6 months or so? I forget exactly.) We knew that we might not have such a good opportunity if I were to either start a degree or move to another job, so we took it. Our thoughts were that we could always find reasons why it wasn't the perfect time to have a baby, but that realistically, it was better than many people's situations, and that we would find a way to make it work. And so far we've done that.

Of course I've felt tension between my family life and my academic life. But I think having this time to spend at home with my son is beneficial, both to him and to me. I have more perspective on my career than I used to, and I think I'm more prepared to look into alternative career paths than I was before.

And, to address your final point, I think they have the system the right way around - higher degrees should be more expensive, because otherwise too many people would do them, and there are already far too many people with PhDs who can't get work in their fields. My advice to anyone going into an advanced arts degree is a) only do it because you love it, not because it'll get you a job, because there's a good chance it won't, and b) don't go into debt for it. If they can't offer you full or nearly-full funding, it's not worth it. That said, most universities can offer funding to at least some students, so the financial obstacles are hardly insurmountable if you're well-qualified.

[identity profile] toad-hall.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 07:18 pm (UTC)(link)
my experience is a bit different since I haven't really ever wanted children, and now, am not able to (so it all works out that way really)...but I dropped out of my ph.d because it is very very very difficult to finish a degree at that level w/out a lot of financial and household support - and I was the household and financial support and didn't realize how dangerously close to financial and emotional ruin I was because I was too busy trying to keep work (because even with TA positions, funding, grants etc. it's still a lot of money), gigs, home and doctoral work together to realize that my ex wasn't exactly contributing. There was a lot of self-inflicted grief and angst when I walked away from it all (including the ex!) and I'm very fortunate that in all the decisions I've made, life has turned out ok (I think that's at least in part due to my belief that if you make a decision, do your best to make it work out positively) but the sad thing is that the $$ (and relationship, actually) situations I describe were in no way unique to the other women in my programme -and it was a lot more difficult for the 2 who had babies. The men did ok, most of them had wives or girlfriends who were happy to contribute (I hope they thank them daily!). And now that I re-read this last little bit, it really sounds like the cliche of men who are threatened by smart women, which I'm not sure I buy, but there you go. [Also: not sure whether it matters, but I have no intention of ever finishing.]

[identity profile] merlyn4401.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 07:20 pm (UTC)(link)
I think ti totally depends on teh career. Teacher, or any 40 or so hour a week job? Sure. It can be balanced - a woman still has time to see her child, time to see her spouse, time to be a person. Highpowered lawyer or any other extremely demanding profession that puts in 60-80 hours a week - I can't see how it can be balanced. I can't see how you can be an excellent professional and an excellent mother under those circumstances.

And for what it's worth, I feel the same way about men. Men who work 80 hours a week and are barely home have a hell fo a challenge to live up to the title of excellent father.

[identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 07:29 pm (UTC)(link)
The times when I've limited myself to work weeks under fifty hours, I've become so mired in work I had to dig myself out with a shovel. Teaching is NOT a forty-hour-a-week job. Which means that I limit it in other ways, and don't do EVERYTHING I should. So I guess I agree with the other commenter in your journal - I'm an adequate teacher and a good mom, but being excellent at both all the time is unrealistic.

[identity profile] merlyn4401.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 07:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Sorry, I wasn't trying to denigrate teaching.

[identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 07:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I know. :) This is one of the most common misconceptions around about teachers - that we work from ten to nine until three-thirty, and generally have it easy in terms of work hours. I have some degree of flexibility outside of school hours, but my total workload is quite heavy, and I have to make a deliberate choice not to bring work home.

[identity profile] merlyn4401.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)
That's a quirk on the whole thing, though. I was aware that teachers work a lot outside the classroom. My dad is a prof, and brought a lot of work home, but he was HOME, even if he was working. He could stop for 10 minutes and read me a story, or whatever. And I suspect that even when you do have to bring work home you are still able to interact with your kids.

[identity profile] neebs.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 07:57 pm (UTC)(link)
My mom was a kick-ass teacher and when she couldn't finish work at school, she'd bring it home. As soon as I was old enough to read, I was helping grade her tests. (Mostly the multiple choice section!) So we were still "playing" even when she was home.

And even though I KNOW you work more than 40 hours a week, you also get summers off!! (At least here in the States.) So over the course of the year, I think it probably evens out--during the school year, you have less time, but then during summers you can devote all your attention and energy to your kids, should you so choose.

[identity profile] velvetpage.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 08:03 pm (UTC)(link)
A friend of mine once worked it out. If she worked an average of sixty hours a week during the school year and had twelve weeks off, she'd be working about the same number of hours as someone who put in forty-five hours, fifty weeks of the year. So you're right - it mostly works out. And I plan my lessons and marking so that as much as possible happens while the kids are there, which limits how much I have to do later.

[identity profile] neebs.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 08:06 pm (UTC)(link)
That's what my mom always did, too. She mentors new teachers now and they don't get how she got all that done. But then, you sound like you have similar teaching styles (mostly in terms of not taking crap from your class) so I think that gives you more time to plan instead of discipline.

[identity profile] merlyn4401.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 07:29 pm (UTC)(link)
And I just realized I totally went off in my own direction and didn't answer your questions. :)

I didn't go to grad school because I met Gord and wanted to get married. My career goal as of now is to go back to get my MLS and get a job. But I am more than willing to wait until my youngest is in school so I don't have to put him in daycare - that's important to me. So by the time I am done with school and have a job, my kids will be old enough to stay home by themselves for a couple hours after shcool, and I won't feel bad about leaving them.

[identity profile] voldermoo.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 07:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Haaving children and an education are kinda unrelated for me. I applied to college after high school and was accepted into Niagara's social worker program (for years and years I really wanted to be a teacher, but why I didn't go for it is a long story, but I've recently been revisiting the idea). Anyway, there was no money for college and I didn't qualify for osap or a student loan from the bank so I didn't end up going. That was probably for the better because I don't think I would have enjoyed being a social worker.

After that disappointment I sort of gave up on school. I worked. Enjoyed being a young adult and spent my money. Then I met my husband, got married and wanted kids right away. I know have a good paying job that I only got because of my experiences of the last 10 years, but I regret not going to school. I want to go back, I'm just not sure what for and if we'll be able to afford it. Only time will tell I guess.

[identity profile] neebs.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 08:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I work full-time and go to school part-time and the only way that is working is because my work is flexible enough to let me study AT work. (Which, coincidentally enough, I *should* be doing now!) But there is no way I could have a baby right now, or probably a child of any age. I barely have enough time to get everything done as it is and I don't have to worry about cleaning my house or cooking because I'm living with my parents. Granted, my commute eats up a lot of time, but I couldn't afford to live closer to work and school with all the expenses of having a child. Even taking out the financial costs, I have practically zero time to devote to other people right now and there is NO way I could do that with my own child.

I don't have experience raising kids, but I do know my own expectations for myself, and being gone for 10-12 hours a day is not among them. I know there are people doing this in my program, but I really don't get how they are actually DOING it.

IF on the off chance G and I get married and decide to start a family before I finish grad school, then I'll probably quit working to finish school ASAP. Or go half time to each, if possible. But I think that's probably not going to be a concern, so I don't think about it much.

[identity profile] lasarina.livejournal.com 2007-01-30 08:06 pm (UTC)(link)
I tried to do both (academia and motherhood; I had 3 young children during both master's time.) first time round on the Biology Masters work, not so bad-mostly I suspect because I was on the cutting edge of a new discipline- genetic engineering. I turned down a free ride for the PhD because I like to sleep at night (genetic engineering germ warfare - I did some preliminary that the government was VERY interested in.) The second masters in linguistics - I caught unmitigated hell for "being distracted by my home situation." This is while I was outperforming professors in the classes I was teaching, making A's in my grad work AND being published (or in a couple of cases, refuting papers in peer reviewed journals.) It was the perception of course. The male grad students didn't catch near the grief I did. I was the only female with kids in the program.
My experience is there is tremendous prejudice against active motherhood and advanced degree work. The saddest thing is that the most virulent cases I encountered was from the female tenured professors. Either they were empty-nesters for the grad work, or more prevalently, they never had children.
FWIW due to financial situation, I left the program ABT. I did go on to become a social worker and a teacher. And believe me, teaching is anything BUT a 40 hour a week job. ;)

[identity profile] dulcinbradbury.livejournal.com 2007-02-06 03:11 pm (UTC)(link)
My first major relationship fell apart in college. I'd planned on getting married at the end of my BA & settling down. When my life just wasn't heading that way yet, I decided to go back for the MS -- part-time & then full-time. I've contemplated a PhD in English, but, that would be much later. I'm a librarian, I love my career path, but, the desire for a family will always be first & foremost for me.