Something to tell my dad. . .

[velvetpage]

The next time he trots out the argument that a moral system without God doesn't hold water. Philosophically, I can see the point, but psychologically it doesn't work, and this article explains why.

I have only one complaint with the article: many of his "Godless liberals" are/were Christians with a social conscience, whose reasons for opposing the other guys were also faith-based.

http://lancemannion.typepad.com/lance_mannion/2006/06/godless.html

Comments

[foxmagic.livejournal.com]

Good observations, and I wasn't even aware of the book in question - it annoys me to read about it. Christian extremist sensationalism.

When I'm faced with someone who asserts that no God = no morals, I just point 'im at this, (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html) by the way.

[paka.livejournal.com]

And it just seems like limiting G-d to me. This is going to sound flakey, but it seems to me that having a system of morals and ethics is almost the voice of G-d within you, proof that you hold part of divinity within yourself.

There's more, here, but to be honest I don't think the whole "there are no morals without G-d" isn't so much intended as actual theology so much as a rationale for why governments should legislate a single official religion.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Oh, my dad intends it as theology, and it's doctrine for every Christian denomination I'm familiar with.

[neosis.livejournal.com]

It's part theology, part flock tending. If there are no morals without God than anyone who is not a member of the religion can't help but be evil. Taken to it's logical conclusion, this means you need to convert them to goodness and be suspicious of everything they say until they convert.

Furthermore, I'm sure velvetpage's father is talking about the Christian theory that everything good flows from God. That any act of goodness by a person is inspired by God and therefore any moral system that does not revolve around God can't be good.

Of course, the classical counterpoint is that is something good because God tells you to do it, or does God only tell you to do good things? In the first case, if God told you to drown kittens it would good because God told you to do so. In the second, it implies that there is a seperate moral order that is independent of God and therefore God isn't actually the center of your moral system. It's a catch-22.

My opinion is any moral system that involves a deity is not in fact moral. Just like the rant linked by velvetpage says. If your moral system is tied to deific approval then you can justify any action, no matter how horrible as "good". No thanks, I'll take secular morality, instead.

Secular moralists can be just as bad, but instead of trying to convince themselves and others that their actions are good, they have to try to convince others that their actions were necessary. Which, I think, is a more reasonable place for arguments to be.