Here it is! Creation debate to date

[velvetpage]

I've received permission to copy the posts/comments and continue the debate here. Welcom, vickimfox!


My original comment:
I must confess I've never understood creationists. To be more specific, I've never understood the point of trying to prove the Bible is one-hundred-percent accurate. Anyone who tries to do so has confused the notions of "accuracy" and "truth". They are not at all the same thing.

I'd be really interested to know what that guy thinks about accuracy vs. truth. :)

Their reply was:

That's okay. Those of us with a God-centric worldview do not understand evolutionists. We don't understand how anyone can look at the structure, organization, information, interconnection, and balance of the universe from the largest to the smallest and think that it came about by random events and by violating various law of Physics and Chemistry from mechanics to thermodynamics to chemical bonding.

Even in academic circles many scientists are questioning the traditional evolution theories and embracing a hybrid called Intelligent Design. These scientists still do not acknowledge God, but they see that the current state of the evolution framework has more holes than swiss cheese.

Also, evolution is not a theory or a fact. It is a worldview - a mindset used to interpret observations. In academic circles, there is debate among scientists about which evolution framework is "correct". Do you believe in the punctuated equilabrium framework, neo-Darwinism framework, or catastrophy framework? Oh, let's not forget that there are about six or seven different proposed frameworks in academia just hypothesizing about how the original amino acids were formed.


Now, to the matter of "accuracy". The dictionary defines "accuracy" as "absolutely correct, making no mistakes" and "agreeing exactly with the truth".

The reason Bible-believing Christians take this matter of the inerrant nature of the Bible is simple - Jesus told us that is the measure of His Word! [John 3:12] "I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?" What this means is that if God cannot record history and other earthly aspects correctly, then how in the world can we believe what God tells us in the Bible about spiritual, moral, and heavenly things?

Even in the Old Testament, God established that any statement claimed to "be from God" but discovered to be false was clear evidence that the statement was not from God and that the person preaching such was not sent by God.

Therefore, if there are errors in the original texts, then the Bible in essence tells us that we should reject it (the whole Bible). If the Bible is not accurate, then it does not tell the truth. Conversely, if the Bible is accurate, then it implies that it is telling the truth.

Creationists and Evolutionists look at the same "evidence" but interpret it differently. You may look at a fossil and think million of years. I look at the same fossil, the result of rapid burial, and think of Noah's Flood. You may look at radioactive material and think long dates. I look at the same radioactive measurements and think "Yeah, so what? The dating mathematics is invalid and nobody knows the initial conditions."

PS. I have advanced degrees in Physics and Computer Science. When I was in college I believed in evolution. But, the more I studied, especially the mathematics of radioactive dating and information theory, the more I became convienced about the deception of evolution. This change did not occur until many years after I was saved and became a Christian.

Comments

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Incidentally, let me put my cards on the table.

I believe that evolution is the system whereby God directs Creation. Evolution is not a denial of divine creation, anymore than climate theory is. The argument about the law of thermodynamics is potentially moot, since God is running the show.

I also think it’s intellectually dishonest for Creationists to say “Evolution is wrong because it violates this law of science,” while at the same time pointing out that scientists are constantly finding exceptions to their “laws” and fine-tuning them in ways which leave room for Creationism. And, of course, the “laws” of thermodynamics are more properly called the “current theories of thermodynamics.”

While I believe in divine creation, I also believe that the evidence is in favour of an old Earth. I believe that Genesis is presented as a parable which contains the basic facts – for example, the order of creation roughly matches the order of appearance in the fossil record. You can leave aside or dispute the observations of astrophysics and paleontology and still come to the conclusion that the Earth is older than 10,000 years. Indeed, it was the simple study of human history that led philosophers to come to that conclusion long before Darwin existed.

I believe that the Scriptures are, taken overall, divinely inspired, but obviously filtered through a human lens. We see as through a glass, darkly.

As an example of what I mean, consider the history of the Bible. As you know, the books of the Bible were largely settled on during the Nicean Council. The Bishops and elders examined the disparate bits and pieces, argued about them, and said “This is divinely inspired. This isn’t. This the word of God. This isn’t.” By and large, they agree, though several very large branches of the faith (such as the Orthodox and Ethiopian churches) continue to use books of the Bible that are not recognized by the Catholic or Protestant faiths.

Now, the traditional idea among Christians, especially Protestants, is that those ancient worthies were guided by God to make the right choices. Fine so far.

Curiously, 1500 some odd years later, these divinely inspired choices changed, at least for Protestants, when Martin Luther decided that the books of the Apocrypha were false. This has led many poorly informed Protestants to tell their Catholic friends that there is, for example, no scriptural evidence for Purgatory… when there IS evidence. It’s just not in the Protestant Bible. We can also take the example of the Book of Enoch, which is quoted in Jude, but not accepted as a true book of the Bible by all but a very few churches.

So, who was wrong? Did God divinely inspire the original church fathers to select the real books of the Bible? Or was Martin Luther divinely inspired to make the right choices, despite the warning in Revelations about taking from or adding to the Gospel? Had God allowed Christians to have an inaccurate Bible for the majority of the church’s history?

This questions become moot if you believe that humans just tend to screw up anything they’re involved in. It wasn’t God making the selections. It was a group of fallible humans attempting to identify the Divine will… and we’ve never been very good at that.

[vickimfox.livejournal.com]

I believe that evolution is the system whereby God directs Creation.
I believe what God says He did instead of what men think He could have done.

Evolution is not a denial of divine creation
I believe evolution and Genesis 1-11 are irreconcilable. Only one can be correct.

I believe that Genesis is presented as a parable
So, if Genesis is just a parable, then I suppose there was no Abraham, no Jacob, no Issac, no Joseph, or any of the other fathers of Israel. If Genesis is just a parable, then I suppose when Jesus quotes from Genesis in a literal sense that He is lying to us. Or, is it only parts of Genesis are a parable and others are history? How do you decide which portions are which?

the order of creation roughly matches the fossil record.
Really?

Genesis says plants on dry land was created BEFORE the sun and sea animals. Evolution says the sun came first, then sea animals, then plants.

Genesis says the world was first covered in water. Evolution says the world was first hot with lava and methane atmosphere.

Genesis says birds and fishes created BEFORE land animals. Evolution says birds are derived from land animals (dinosaurs).

Further, if fossils formed BEFORE Adam and Eve, then this would make God a liar since God says death did not enter the world until AFTER Adam sinned.


the books of the Bible were largely settled on during the Nicean Council.
This is a popular lie propogated by critics who want to discount the New Testament. It ignores the fact that the Old Testament books were canonized by the Jews around 400 BC! The New Testament books were agreed upon as early as 100 AD based upon the writings of early church fathers.

The Nicaea Council, with 318 bishops called by Constantine, was to settle a growing heresy issue, the Arian controversy that questioned the diety of Jesus. The council established the Nicene Creed. It established Sunday as the day for Christian worship services. It established the way of calculating the date for Easter. And, the "official" Vatican Manuscript of the New Testament books that were already accepted and in general use was produced. There was NO debating which books were to be included. My source is a massive 14 volume series called "The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series" by Philip Schaff (editor). This series reviews all the early council documents.


Regarding the Apocrypha books, these have always played a second tier role. They have never been accepted by the Jews as part of the Hebrew Bible, but they are used as historical references by Jews for the time after about 400 BC.

The Apocrypha books are never quoted by early church fathers. They have never been treated as part of the base Canon, but again used for the historical references during the gap between Babylonian Captivity and Jesus.

Regarding the Jude so-called reference to the Book of Enoch. There is too much debate about if this is even a reference to that book or just a coincidence of similar wording. Even if it were, it does not promote B.Enoch to canon level. After all, Paul quotes Greek poetry (Acts 17:28) and that doesn't promote Greek poetry to canon level.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I believe evolution and Genesis 1-11 are irreconcilable. Only one can be correct.

So you believe. What is necessary to salvation?

So, if Genesis is just a parable, then I suppose there was no Abraham, no Jacob, no Issac, no Joseph, or any of the other fathers of Israel. If Genesis is just a parable, then I suppose when Jesus quotes from Genesis in a literal sense that He is lying to us. Or, is it only parts of Genesis are a parable and others are history? How do you decide which portions are which?

I meant the Creation story part of Genesis.

This is a popular lie propogated by critics who want to discount the New Testament. It ignores the fact that the Old Testament books were canonized by the Jews around 400 BC! The New Testament books were agreed upon as early as 100 AD based upon the writings of early church fathers.

As it turns out, I was thinking of the Council of Rome from 382. My apologies. The Council of Rome declared that the Apocrypha were divinely inspired, and no less significant than the other books of the Bible.

Yet Luther discounted them. Why?

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Incidentally, you are of course correct about the order of things presented in Genesis. I should not rely on my faulty memory before making a statement like I did.